During the Hawks preview I pretty much killed the Hornets bench, and a few of you pointed out that the Hornets don't really have the worst bench in the league like I was implying. That's true, but there is a reason why I've soured on our bench so much - and it's not just the fact that we lose the 2nd quarter by an average of 2 points every game.
In terms of efficiency, the players in the Hornets second unit have a collective Offensive Efficiency of 101.5 points scored per 100 posessions. Now, last year the Hornets second unit posted a similar number, but they also posted a deadly defensive efficiency that actually allowed them to outscore their opponents over the course of the season. This season, the 2nd unit's defensive efficiency is about 103.7 points given up per 100 posessions. Defensively, that's not bad - but it is bad when combined with an offense that poor.
So where does the Hornet's bench rank? Defensively, they rank 11th among second units. Offensively, they rank 22nd. Overall, they are 16th in the league, which means they are just about average. At first look, that sounds fine, but here's the real problem: Other than Dallas, the Hornets have the worst bench among the current 8 seeds in the West, and the Hornets and Dallas are the only seeds that have a bench that is outscored by its opponents. That means that when the Hornets hit the playoffs, we can expect the second-quarter meltdowns to become even more pronounced. It's pathetic, because the Hornet's starting five is the seventh best in the league, despite all the nagging injury issues they've had. If the Hornet's bench could provide even a little boost, or even just play the other team more evenly, it would make the team infinitely stronger and get the starters more rest.
So is there a way to fix the bench? I'm a bit of a pessimist, but here is an idea that several people have already proposed in our comments, and that I agree with: turning Stojakovic into a sixth man.
During the series of games where Paul, Chandler, and West were all out of commission, the Hornets turned to Peja to be their primary offensive option, and he did a pretty solid job in that role. The past three games with Julian in the starting lineup, the Hornet's starters have produced a slightly worse offensive efficiency of 108.0 and a much nastier defensive efficiency of 84.0. Granted, that is a very small sample size, and there is no way I expect that defensive efficiency to continue, but it is extremely promising. The Hornets could start Julian, sub him out for Peja around the 6:00 minute mark of the first quarter and let Peja warm up. At the start of the second quarter, they can start running the offense through him.
Making this change will entail curtailing Posey's minutes some - but I really think he'd be better served as a 20-22 minute man anyways, not the 29 minute man he's been all season. There are 144 minutes available between the power forward, small forward and shooting guard spots - give West 38, Peja 28, Wright 24, Butler 34, and Posey 20 minutes.
It would be something interesting to see tried. I have no idea how Peja would respond to coming off the bench for the first time in years. He has the personality that I think he'd accept it without question, but I can't be sure, and I don't know if coming in cold off the bench would impact his shooting at all.
If it doesn't work - I'd explore sending Butler to the bench in a sixth man role. The biggest concern there is that Butler has to get minutes to be effective. For his career, if he gets 25+ minutes, he shoots 43% from the field and 38% from downtown. If he gets less than 25 minutes, he shoots 37% and 30%.
The Coaching staff have 20 games to figure something out, and happily, Byron Scott sounds ready to try anything. After the Atlanta game he said:
"The second quarter was awful, as simply put as that," Scott said. "I thought our guys in the second quarter did a terrible job of defending those guys. Whatever we could do wrong in the second quarter we basically did."
"It's putting too much pressure on our starters," Scott said, adding he plans to make adjustments to his second unit.
"I can't sit there and continue to watch this," he said.
Here's hoping that whatever he tries works - and that it's more than just inserting Devin Brown and Ryan Bowen back into the second unit again.


27 life-affirming comments post your own
ticktock6
03/10/09 12:06 PM
The thing is, judging by the rest of his quote, it's TOTALLY going to be inserting Devin Brown and Ryan Bowen. I like the Peja idea. He was a great floor leader and scorer when the other big three were out in January/Feb. I like the idea of Mo Pete getting back on the floor. I'm in agreement about not caring about Posey's minutes. He's had more this year than in the past few seasons. How are you supposed to be a bench spark if you play too much to, well, have the energy to make a spark?
hornetshype.com #1
mW
03/10/09 12:55 PM
For pretty much every reason Ryan gave, agree wholeheartedly. And that's no slam on Peja. We need to figure out he to charge the second unit. If that means making Peja our Ginobli or Terry off the bench, so be it. Posey, as TT6 said, is our spark, our stopper. Let's limit his minutes to enable him to be more effective (plus, remember, if he has that "Horry" quality, Big Shot Rob" was downright horrible in some of the games before his actual "big shot" -- let's limit even that possibility). Lastly, my agreement comes also with the caveat Free Mo Pete. Imagine AD with two startng caliber wings, and with Hilton/Marks underneath to jam it if their defender cheats too much. That would be nce.
www.hornetshype.com #2
Niall Doherty
03/10/09 01:04 PM
I'm not utterly convinced that putting Peja in a reserve role would be the answer to our woes, but I'm all for it just to see Byron making significant adjustments and taking the odd risk. I wouldn't be too worried about hurting Peja's feelings either. Like you said, Ryan, he doesn't seem to have much of an ego, and if anything he'll get more shots as our primary offensive option on the floor.
But I think the best thing about trying this would be seeing JuJu playing more with the starters. That would help his development a lot.
www.ndoherty.com #3
ticktock6
03/10/09 01:37 PM
None of these things could be "the answer." But we all know what happens if Byron doesn't try? .... Nothing. If JuJu starts playing crazy and unfocused, you can always take him out. But you can't go back and replay games you lost because you did the same thing over and over. I'm for big outside the box ideas, not more "hey maybe Ely will be good today? maybe Devin Brown?"
hornetshype.com #4
Andrea
03/10/09 01:49 PM
I like the idea of bringing Peja off of the bench. He seems like the type that would do whatever is needed to make the team better. We absolutely by no means bring Rasual Butler off the bench at this point in the season. I just feel like when you have a guy who had the season (or non-season since he rarely played) come out this season and play like he has after being inserted into the SL, you don't mess with the that because of all the confidence he's gained since that point. Not at all am I saying that Sual has a fragile psyche and that his play will dip if brought off of the bench, but you just don't take the chance that it might.
A small part of the problem is that Byron is more of a "take advantage of the mismatch, not run any real offense" kind of coach. For example, if AD-Brown-Posey-Marks-Hilton are the lineup, we always seem to post Posey up when he has a smaller player on him. If he doesn't score, 5 to 7 times out of 10, it's just a wasted possession. Those add up. Especially with our whole bench in, we're horrible at manufacturing points which is why we almost never have only bench guys on the floor unless it's a segababa.
Ryan Bowen needs more PT period. We need energy and hustle off of the bench, put him in. He's another body with 6 fouls to give who's gonna play hard, get a reb or 2, and just flat out hustle. CP needs to start the 2nd at times too instead of leaving David out there with the B-Listers.
I'd like to see our last 2 starting lineups as the one for the rest of the season. Our second unit should be: Daniels, MoPete/Posey, Peja, Marks, Armstrong. I don't know when was the last time that MoPete was actually healthy enough to play but whenever he was why hasn't he? For a team that has a deplorable bench and relies heavily on the 3-pt shot, I think it's foolishness to keep a guy who can hit the 3 and be an obvious upgrade to your team on the bench.
#5
joe
03/10/09 02:26 PM
I really agree with wright coming in as a starter to get experience but i dont see our bench problem the same way, i think we have a whole bunch of capable guys just running the wrong kind of system, with cp its a whole bunch of pick and rolls with chandler and west and it lets him create and challenge the defense, daniels doesnt posses the ability to approach the pick and roll the same way, he cant explode through two defenders and finish at the rim like cp can, so byron needs to find an offence that fits the benches strengths instead of the starters strengths, not a radical change but something that doesnt point out the obvious difference between cp and daniels every time down the court, make some more set plays that will try and get us better shots
#6
Borris Mart
03/10/09 02:49 PM
Like everyone else, I'm totally on board. The potential benefits are huge and the costs of trying it out are very low. It'd be so refreshing for this team to really address the fact that it is, most likely, not where it needs to be to win a championship. Maybe the switch gets us closer, maybe not...but it's at least worth a look. I think our first line and second line would both be scarier in time. Hopefully Byron's post-game comments last night signal some acknowledgment that he needs to shake things up more than usual.
#7
Mark
03/10/09 03:23 PM
Try it out, I guess. Talent-wise, he'd be a great asset. Productivity? I'm not sold. Predrag needs a player like CP who can draw defenses. Antonio Daniels nor Devin Brown just aren't those guys. Of course, we have to experiment to tell.
And I'm with Broken_Hearts. Bowen needs to play a guaranteed 7 minutes a game in effort of holding our lead. He's not a quarter guy and may end up with a negative +/-, but the man doesn't hold back. Like I've always said, if we lose trying, it's a loss I will be proud of.
www.dogpile.com/ #8
canadian_hornet
03/10/09 03:26 PM
I'm sorry ... but I don't know why the bench is getting most of the blame for last night. The starter's offense in the 4th quarter was horrendous. How many times there was NO MOVEMENT off the ball and we were forced into whoever had the ball at the end of the shot clock hoisting up some terrible fade away. I was more disgusted with the our 4th quarter last night than the 2nd. All game long starters missing easy catches and layups when they were there and when they weren't being incapable of generating a shot. I think frustration with the refs added to it, West or Chandler didn't get one free throw throughout the first three quarters and I think when that happens the players get in the mentality that 'I have to at least get a clean look cause I'm not getting a foul.' Those become TOUGH clean looks. I think that night was a result of officiating and a bad shooting night. Not totally fed up with the bench yet. One thing tha twas really disappointing was the lack of attempted penetration by CP in the second half, he has got to force the dribble to generate offense. We know he can do it when he wants to.
As of the bench woes, how about putting AD in with the starters a bit earlier in the 1st (leaning on DWest as we have been doing in the early second), and bringing CP in with the bench early in the 2nd and letting him make them better. CP, Mo Pete, Peja, Posey, Marks could do some damage. All are great perimeter players which could feed off CP penetration, and if Posey catches the ball in the low block and potentially grabs some double teams some extra passes could free up some shooters.
#9
Mikey
03/10/09 03:26 PM
I said a couple weeks back to move Peja to the bench, and let him be the primary option for the 2nd unit. Is that worth $12.5 million a year? At this point I'd try just about anything. Here are some other things that Byron and the gang in suits can try:
1. Sit CP with like 4 or 5 minutes left in the 1st quarter, and let him start the 2nd with the 2nd unit. Give him a breather mid-way through the quarter, and then bring him back for the end of the half.
2. Just take a chance with Morris Peterson, even if its just to increase his trade value if he does well. If the guy is healthy enough to not be on the injured list, then he is healthy enough to play. Don't "Deuce McAllisterize" this guy.
3. The rebounding thing has reared it's ugly head again. Sean Marks played 7 minutes last night without a single rebound. I know he's boxing out some, and D-West was Windex last night, but still. That's the 3rd game out of the last six that Marks has failed to record a rebound. Might be time to give *gulp* Armstrong another chance. The Hornets frontcourt, outside of Chandler and West, are a very, VERY weak rebounding bunch.
Bottomline, the Hornets have to find some way to maintain their momentum through the 1st half of games. It feels like opposing teams know they can lax in the 1st quarter and let the Hornets get out to an early lead, because they know they can come back with a big run early in the 2nd quarter, and squash the Hornets' momentum.
#10
canadian_hornet
03/10/09 03:28 PM
also, agree Broken_hearts and Mark, MORE BOWEN!!!!! Love that guy. Especially in a game like last night, in the 4th .. nothing is working , repeating the same stagnant offense, get Bowen in for a spark!!! Something great always happens when he's out there.
#11
canadian_hornet
03/10/09 03:28 PM
wow mikey .. great minds think alike ... weird
#12
NOEngineer
03/10/09 04:50 PM
One Player who I think can shift both our offensive and defensive efficiency lower is Ryan Bowen. He will disrupt the other teams offense, rebound, and play solid D around the painted area. He won't stop a quick guard or huge front-court player and won't get you any points other than via assists and cuts to the basket.
Melvin Ely is under-rated defensively, IMO. He bodies up bigger guys and doesn't allow easy baskets as often as Armstrong and Marks.
Why not transition from starters to bench with the mind-set of maintaining our defensive efficiency, rather than offensive? Figure out who can play defense together and get rebounds together, and ignore how they fit offensively for now. We have certain players who need more help defensively (Daniels, Wright, Marks, Hilton), and we need to figure out how to make that happen. Even Posey needs rotational help if his man gets by his in-your-face defense.
#13
LSUhornet
03/10/09 04:52 PM
I'm all for trying the Peja thing. If Scott's changes involve swapping one ineffective player for another in our bench rotation, I'll lose some confidence in him. If he's really as upset about the bench's play as he says, he'll try something significant instead of trying to give Brown/ Bowen minutes again. I think we all know what to expect from these guys as well as Hilton/Ely and we know the outcome will be pretty similar to the way it has always been. Time for a shake up.
#14
MoPeteCP3
03/10/09 05:32 PM
Why can't rasual come out on the first unit and mo pete go in for him.
mo is not that bad of a player. I miss jannero pargo and bonzi wells. pargo was good offensively and bonzi was good defensively.
#15
The_big_H
03/10/09 09:02 PM
I've favoured a "Peja off the bench roll" for ages. The dude needs more shots. I think the 2nd unit should revolve around setting Peja up with set plays (i.e. off the ball double screens, and Peja curls) to get Peja to shake his man loose.
You don't want to dilute CP3's playing time with weaker players (i.e. put CP3 in with the 2nd unit) as this would just waste his court time.
The 2nd unit should get playing time together to build chemistry and they need to slow the game down to limit the suckiness which running some sets for Peja will do.
One thing is for sure, Butler sucks coming off the pine, Wright sucks coming off the pine, and Peja sucks if he just stands in a corner as a decoy.
Get it done ready
#16
saltandcarbon
03/10/09 09:05 PM
@ Canadian Hornet, you answered your own question re: Paul's dribble penetration. If West and Tyson are getting slammed inside with no calls, CP doesn't have a chance of getting in and out of the lane on a regular basis with his head still attached. And I'm OK with other teams playing that kind of defense, as long as it is called consistently. We need to be able to adjust both by playing the same toughness defensively and on the offensive glass, and by having another set of plays than the pick and roll.
Off. Ball. Screens. Watch (the old) Detroit. Watch the Celtics. They run the prettiest off ball screens to free up shooters - Rip and Rayray - and if the shooter gets rotated on there's a guy free under the basket. It would work for us when Chris can't get through the lane, and when Antonio is running things getting the ball to Peja/Mo/Sual/whoever. Not too complicated and worth a shot I would've thought.
As for Peja coming off as sixth man, I don't think its an insult at all. Often a team's third or fouth best player should come off the bench to make the opposition worry about depth and have to play 48 hard minutes. He'd get it.
#17
fsumatthunter
03/11/09 05:09 AM
MoPeteCP3 just said that he missed Bonzi Wells. I really really never thought I would ever read that sentence by anyone who watches basketball, ever.
Of course I am in the minority on a lot the Hornets issues so what do I know, ya know?
inthehuntwithhunter.blogspot.com #18
Akademik_Hooligan
03/11/09 05:12 AM
I'm all for Peja as our 6th man. People keep saying that he's one dimensional, so if this is true, why did Popovich put Bowen on him last year?
Peja isn't one-dimensional out of choice, when DX was injured for a few games about 6 weekss ago, Peja stepped up to the plate, took a lot more shots inside the arc, and showed some very nice moves in the high post. The more varied he's allowed to be, the more dangerous he is. His points totals while West was injured:
26, 17, 20, 26, 26.
His points totals in the games Paul missed:
24, 28, 11, 23.
It's a shame because whilst we're obviously a better team with West & Paul around, the style of play means Peja has to hover on the arc all the time for the sake of floor spacing. He'd be allowed to me more varied (& therefore dangerous) as the primary offensive option on the 2nd unit, and he'd be up against a lower calibre of perimeter defender in most cases.
Butler & Wright are very capable of giving us what Peja & Mo Pete did combined last year from the wings.
#19
Niall Doherty
03/11/09 07:15 AM
Alright, I'm fully sold after following all the discussion here. Bring Peja off the bench when he comes back, keep JuJu in the starting lineup. Lots more to gain than we have to lose.
@ MoPeteCP3: Rasual needs minutes to be productive, like Ryan said in the post. Benching him would be risky because his flow could easily be disrupted. I miss Pargo, too, but mostly because our back-up point guards have left a lot to be desired this season. I don't miss Bonzi at all because we have a bunch of capable guys at his position.
www.ndoherty.com #20
NOEngineer
03/11/09 07:29 AM
If we use next year's salary for Chris Paul, there is a pretty strong correlation between ability to produce and salary on our team. JuJu and Rasual might be minor exceptions. If substitutions are considered, we take a $6-8 million drop-off from Paul-Daniels and Peja-Posey. The difference is negative $2 mil from Rasual to MoPete. The aching gap of $9-10 mil between Tyson and DWest anybody who could replace them is what kills our flexibility in drawing up line-ups.
What if we strove to maintain an even (and high) level of salary and talent on the floor throughout the game, instead of trying to match our opponents' swings in talent level? We would need to have 3 (and only 3) of our big 4 on the floor at the same time for as much of the game as possible to keep each player's minutes reasonable, and someone would have to come off the bench a la Ginobli or sub out after just a few minutes in the starting role. It could be Peja since he has the height and skills to be versatile. A better option might be DWest, since either he or Tyson MUST be in the game at all times if we want to keep the talent level maxed out (remember our lack of options for these two guys). Start Wright for West but still give West 36 minutes during the game.....
#21
Dejan16
03/11/09 07:40 AM
Even thought bringing peja off the bench sounds like it might benefit our team, I highly doubt this will happen as long as peja is on this team. I dont know thats just my opinion.
#22
Gerry V
03/11/09 08:42 AM
Bravo ! I have been saying for years ! Compare yourself to the ELITE teams.Who are the top 7 teams you play and compare a- How would you matchup in a 7 game series ? b- what do you have have offsets one of their primary advantages ? In this case since playoff basketball has little room for mistakes etc can you bench offset any margins ?
Review how the Hornets did vs the other playoff teams. Look at the matchups. How did they defend Paul and West ? What is the biggest FEAR FACTORS ? Where they offset in anyway ??
Thats why teams that are better suited for "moments of chaos " ( broken plays and players that can create on thei rown when the defense has taken options away....." short clock guys ".......who can get thier own shots ??
Where are the opponents SOFT SPOTS ? Can you strike there ?
Drinks are on me as you discuss....
GV
PS good stuff guys ! i enjoy the read
#23
stormsurge
03/11/09 08:59 AM
Hey Gerry! Thanks for the input!
Peja off the bench. AD takes over late in the first with starters. CP comes back with the bench. Everyone gets rings :D
www.stormsurgephoto.com #24
bigindian15
03/11/09 09:30 AM
The only problem I see with that is that Peja and Posey coming off the bench together means we will be really, really slow on the wings. We can't hope to defend a dude like Manu, Sasha Vujajic, or Sergio Rodriguez with those guys in.
#25
stormsurge
03/11/09 09:58 AM
Yeah, but at least we wont get blown out with them in.
www.stormsurgephoto.com #26
Mikey
03/11/09 11:45 AM
Ok, next question: So you bring Mo Pete back into the rotation. Who's spot does he take? Melvin Ely will probably be one of your inactives, but who is the other one? It SHOULD be Hilton Armstrong, but it'll probably be Ryan Bowen. But where will Mo Pete's minutes come from? His minutes will have to come at the expense of Wright, Brown, Posey, Peja, or Butler. In my opinion, as of right now, Peterson's minutes should come at James Posey's and/or Peja's expense, and here's why. First reason is Byron Scott is wearing Posey out, and Peja needs to stay healthy. The Hornets need a fresh James Posey in late April. You're not going to get that at almost 33 mintes a game, so give the guy a breather. Secondly, Devin Brown doesn't get enough minutes to worry about, Rasual needs the minutes to get going and is producing far beyond anyone's expectations this season, and the mental fog is just starting to clear for Julian Wright. It would be a tragedy to cut Ju Ju's minutes now. Mo's minutes would mostly have to come from Posey.
Getting back to Bowen, I know alot of commenters have supported giving him some minutes. I'm glad to see that most of us are limiting it to 7-10 minutes per game, because his effectiveness really drops off after that. You just cannot sustain that level of energy for any longer than that. The problem with having Bowen on the floor is, while he's an energy and effort guy which I like, he is a hole offensively, and the 2nd unit has trouble scoring. I think he'd be of some help rebounding, perhaps get a steal or two, and is savvy enough on defense to stay with some perimeter players and play inside, but he'll generate little or no offense. Good defenses will leave him by himself from 18'-20' away and dare him to shoot jumshots, and he'll elect to pass more times than not. All that said, it's still more than Armstrong can give. He won't commit too many dumb fouls, and commit even fewer dumb turnovers.
#27