All of the NBA's regular season awards have now been announced. Chris Paul landed himself on the 1st Team Defensive squad, the 2nd Team All-NBA squad, Fifth in the MVP Voting, and 6th in the Defensive Player of the Year award.
That's an impressive set of awards, but I'll be honest: CP3 deserved the 1st team All-NBA Award. CP3 also deserved more than 5th in the MVP voting - and both should have come at the expense of Kobe Bryant.
I'm sorry - it's true. The LA hype machine has inflated Bryants reputation way beyond reality. He's not the best player on the planet. That's LeBron James, who has done, and is doing again, what Kobe couldn't - take a mediocre team to the Finals. He's not the best guard on the planet - that's Chris Paul, who accounted for a larger percentage of his teams offense than anyone since Tiny Archibald led the league in scoring and assists. He's not even the best shooting guard - that's Dwyane Wade - who scored more efficiently this season than Kobe ever has in his entire career.
The difference between the reality of Kobe Bryant and the perception has begun to irritate me. I'll admit a lot of that is because it's leaving my boy Chris Paul out in the cold, but step back and look at the reality of the hard, numbers from the primary perimeter superstars of the league: Bryant, Wade, James, and Chris Paul:
Scoring
Kobe's claim to fame is his ability to score, right? Sadly, he's not that efficient of a scorer:
- James scores 1.43 points per shot(pps).
- Paul scores 1.42 pps.
- Wade scores 1.37 pps.
- Bryant scores 1.29 pps.
Some will claim his lesser efficiency is because he has to carry the offensive load and create shots. Sorry, that doesn't work either:
- Wade used 34% of his teams posessions.
- James used 32%.
- Bryant used 30%.
- Paul used 28%.
How about the other major stats:
Rebounding
- James grabbed 11.9% of available rebounds when on the floor.
- Paul grabbed 8.7%.
- Kobe grabbed 8.2%.
- Wade grabbed 7.8%.
Assists
- Paul assisted on 33.4% of his possessions.
- James assisted on 21.1%.
- Wade assisted on 20%.
- Bryant assisted on 15.5%.
Defense
What about defense, where Bryant has a reputation as the best perimeter defender known to mankind?
- The average NBA PER for small forwards this season 15.7. Against James and the Cavaliers, they averaged a league-worst 12.6 for a drop of 2.9.
- The average NBA PER for point guards this season was 17.1. Against Paul and the Hornets, they averaged a 3rd worst 14.9 for a drop of 2.2.
- The average NBA PER for shooting guards this season was 15.7. Against Bryant and the Lakers, they averaged a 3rd Worst 13.7 for a drop of 2.0
- Against Wade and the Heat, shooting guards averaged a 5th worst 14.2 for a drop of 1.5.
Funny. Again the best Kobe can do is third best of the group.
Okay, so the numbers aren't coming down in favor of Kobe. How about the other stuff?
Leadership
C'mon - it's a wash between these four guys, but if I really want to get nitpicky, Bryant is the only one who has been called out as a poor leader during his career.
Team success
Hey, Bryant's finally cracked the top two! That's nice, but let's play pick a player. You're building a team to play this season alone, eliminating worries for age. Who do you take from these lists:
| Category | Lakers | Hornets | Cavaliers | Heat |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Primary Big Man | Pau Gasol | David West | Zydrunas Ilgauskas | Udonis Haslem |
| 1/2 Season Big Man | Andrew Bynum | Tyson Chandler | Ben Wallace | Jermaine O'Neal |
| 3rd Scoring Option | Lamar Odom | Peja Stojakovic | Mo Williams | Michael Beasley |
| Alternate 3rd Option | Derek Fisher | Rasual Butler | Delonte West | Mario Chalmers |
| X- Factor | Trevor Ariza | James Posey | Anderson Varejao | Daequan Cook |
Right. The Lakers own 3 of those categories and come in second in the other two. Kobe is surrounded by the best set of teammates any superstar has in the league - and we're supposed to give him the lions share of the credit for their 65 wins? Please.
So let's do another pick a player. Which would you take if you had one season to play?
James, Paul, Wade or Kobe?
51 glorious comments post your own
ticktock6
05/15/09 11:21 AM
THANK you. I said this on Twitter the other day. No one could really come up with a response to my numbers other than, "Well, yeah, but it's Kobe."
Which tells you all you need to know.
hornetshype.com #1
Niall Doherty
05/15/09 11:49 AM
Good argument.
What bugs me most though is that Dirk made 1st team with less votes that CP. I understand they assemble the team by position and everything, but it's not like it's a real team that's going to suffer if they don't have enough big men. Just put the top-5 vote-getters on the first team and skip the controversy.
www.ndoherty.com #2
Andrea
05/15/09 12:25 PM
I honestly would've been fine if Brandon Roy was the other guard over Bryant because both he and Wade had a better individual season. That was a reputation call. Just like him making All-Defensive 1st team. I really don't know how he got the "reputation" as a superior defender anyway...
#3
Dodgerblue15
05/15/09 01:48 PM
Guys, guys, guys...I realize it's popular to hate Kobe Bryant. No matter what he does he will never be good enough for people who dislike him. To Andea, the Lakers were fifth in the league in defensive rating despite having a matador for a point guard (Farmar or Fish) and Pau Gasol as their center for half the season. Who guards the best perimeter player for the Lakers in crunch time? Kobe. Also, if you are going to talk about Kobe's rep as a defender not being justified, then perhaps take a look at how often CP3 gets posted up, or gets scored on because he's a just a lil guy. First and foremost, how many scoring point guards are there in the NBA? Tony Parker. Deron Wiliams. Chauncey Billups. Devin Harris. And I guess you could put Steve Nash there despite his rep as a distributor, because his game is all offense. Point being, the list is not that long. Whereas, the primary job of a shooting guard is to, well, shoot. Even still, Parker averaged 24 points and 6 assists on 60 percent shooting against the Hornets this season. DWill averaged 16 and 11 on 43 percent, but how many of those games did the Hornets win again? Steve Nash averaged a cool 24 points and 11 assists on 64 percent shooting in his 2 games against the Hive. And, not to bring up a sore subject or anything, but I don't think I need to remind you of how well Mr. Big Shot lit up the Hornets. See, stats can be spun any which way you want. Are these stats I bring up arbitrary? Sure they can be. But so can one's efficiency. So can one's adjusted +/-. And the argument "who would you rather have on your team?" is the most arbitrary, unanswerable question possible. Anderson Varejao might not be as offensively gifted as Pau Gasol, but his defense is most certainly the equal of Pau's offense. Odom is the best third scoring option for the Lakers when he's on, but when he's off (half the time) he's Mr. invisible. Is 41 games of a hot Odom better than 72 games of consistency from Mo Williams? That question's a bit harder to answer. There's no denying the Hornets didn't have a very good bench, but that starting five was killer (hence the real "hype" machine that predicted they would finish tops in the west prior to the season starting). Hype is all about getting excited about something that isn't worth getting excited about. The Lakers won 16 games (Miami's 2008 season) more than the Hornets and finished with the second best record in the league with 65 wins, a feat only a few teams in the history of basketball have ever done (15 to be exact). And out of the top 10 best defensive teams that made the playoffs (Spurs, Houston, Hornets, Cavs, Orlando, Denver, and Boston), the Lakers finished with a 16-5 record. And if you or anybody else thinks that was because of Pau Gasol or Lamar Odom, then you're simply delusional. Is there a huge argument to be made for Paul getting onto the first team? Sure there is. But should it most "certainly" be at the expense of the best, most important player on the West's best team? I'll give you only that you have an argument...and that's the beauty and beast of picking only five players...
westcoastslant.blogspot.com #4
Dodgerblue15
05/15/09 01:54 PM
Just for the record, against those top defensive teams, Kobe averaged 28 points, 5 assists, 5.6 rebounds, around a block and steal per game and 2.6 turnovers on a very efficient 47 percent.
westcoastslant.blogspot.com #5
howardryan6
05/15/09 02:36 PM
Those numbers mean nothing, Kobe is the best of all-time. So what if Paul scores more per shot? Kobe's are a lot more meaningful.
#6
jeremy
05/15/09 03:05 PM
Howard, it's hard to be the G.O.A.T. when you can't even be the best in an era. '97-00 Shaq was the man' '01-04 Timmy ruled the NBA, '05 & '06 Nash and 7 secs. or less took the world by storm, and '07-present is the King James era.
By the way, to disrespect Jordan and claim that KB24 is the G.O.A.T. is blasphemous.
#7
BeesGivingEffort
05/15/09 04:25 PM
LOL Kobe will at best go down as the 3rd best on the wings behind James and Jordan.
#8
BeesGivingEffort
05/15/09 04:40 PM
Dodger your comments on Chris Paul's defense are a little biased towards your Kobe-love.
For one, CP3 does not get posted up very often at all by point guards. I don't know how many games you watch but in watching about 65 I saw him get posted up less than a dozen times.
Chauncey Billups- Lit up the Hornets but Chris Paul was not assigned to guard him until game 3 when he completely shut him down. Furthermore, his averages from games 3-5 was 15 and 8 on 35% shooting with CP3 guarding him. In the regular season CP3 held CB to 15 and 5 on 35% shooting.
Tony Parker- There is not a PG in the world that can stay in front of him 1 on 1 so his scoring relies more on how good your help defense (which for the Hornets is very poor)
Devin Harris- Noticed you listed him but didn't bring him up, for a reason. 16 and 10 on 33% shooting.
Deron Williams- 16 and 11 is not that great considering his averages and how much his team owns us.
Steve Nash- Had a couple good games against us this year. Traditionally though, Chris Paul can easily handle this matchup as evidenced by his 4 TO against him this year and 5 TO average last year.
#9
Dodgerblue15
05/15/09 05:17 PM
True and more true HornetsGon. But that's what I'm saying. Stats are arbitrary and all the stats "favoring" Chris Paul on here don't really mean that he is more deserving of a first team selection over Kobe. As for Paul's selection on the first team all defense, when was the last time Paul was assigned to guard the other team's best perimeter defender? Gary Payton, when he won DPY, was guarding Jordan in the finals. Kobe checks Artest, Deron Williams, Lebron and Wade. CP3 wasn't even guarding Billups to begin the series as you pointed out. He's just too small to guard the elite wings. This same logic is why Kobe is not as valuable defensively as Lebron. Lebron can guard positions 1-5.
Does Paul deserve first team defense? Well, he won it. He also averaged nearly 3 steals per and caused havoc on that end. But I'm not writing posts about how he doesn't deserve it. Would I have picked differently? Yup. I'm a Lakers fan, so there's no bias in this statement, but I would've chosen Rajon Rondo. But I didn't watch nearly as many Hornets or Celtics games as I watched Lakers and Clippers games, so I can't say my opinion is right. My cautionary tale is to take stats as half of the picture. Don't use them to solely prove one's point as the original post has done.
westcoastslant.blogspot.com #10
Ryan Schwan
05/15/09 05:30 PM
Dodger - you can cherry pick your matchups if you like. Of course, that's not using statistics, that's using game results. Statistics rely on a significant sample size - which is more than a few games. I can just as easily point out that Brandon Roy averaged 22 points and 6 assists vs the Lakers, or that Andre Igoudala hit for 23 against the Lakers or that rookie OJ Mayo lit them up for 20 points a game on 51% shooting. But none of that is really significant.
As for the rest of Kobe's team-mates, you don't really refute my point at all. Kobe has the best surrounding cast of any superstar in the league. By quite a bit.
And discounting them as not having had any input on that closing 16-5 record is part of the reason Kobe Bryant irritates me so much. When he's got a bad team around him - his fans blame his team. When he's got a good cast, they aren't really that good, he's still awesome.
Right.
www.hornets247.com #11
Dodgerblue15
05/15/09 06:02 PM
Ryan, Um...Kwame Brown, Luke Walton, Lamar Odom and Smush Parker. You're going to tell me that THAT'S not a bad team? Could be the worst supporting cast EVER on a playoff team. Miami's got waaaaaaay more talent than that list of crap players. I mean, Lakers fans were upset when Laron Profit went down with a season ending injury that year.
And, everybody says the Lakers have the best talent in the NBA this season. ESPN, Yahoo Sports, you here on this blog. Yet, each and every year, these same people talk about how only defense wins championships. History sides with the defense as well. Celtics, Spurs, Pistons, and the 3peat Lakers. Bulls, Rockets, Pistons, 80s Celtics.
The Suns and Mavs couldn't win despite having dominating offenses. But nobody ever claimed they had the most talent. The Lakers weren't this year's top offense or defense, yet everybody is saying that they have the most talent—the best in the League. If you go up and down each roster, I’d argue that they don’t even have a top-five talent team even when fully healthy. Denver, Cavs, Celtics, Houston, Orlando and Portland have more overall talent then the Lakers.
Name one good defender on the Lakers outside of Kobe, whom, you apparently don't even think is that good at D. There's a case for Ariza, but he gambles a LOT to get those steals totals and he's thin so he gets abused by bigger small forwards (why Kobe guards Lebron and Artest and will probably check Melo if they can even make it that far). Pau can't play defense. Bynum can barely even play at all right now and often got lost pre-second injury. Odom's good on showing after picks, but gets abused down low. Fisher is scrappy, but gets lit up by quick point guards (meaning, every other point in the L). Vujacic is a foul magnet. Farmar can’t stay in front of his own shadow. You can say Brown, but he’s only been with the team for two and a half months.
Please explain this offensive/defensive discrepancy that only seems to apply to the Lakers, namely Kobe Bryant…
westcoastslant.blogspot.com #12
Dodgerblue15
05/15/09 06:06 PM
if defense is so important...how could the Lakers possibly have the best talent?
westcoastslant.blogspot.com #13
ticktock6
05/15/09 06:39 PM
I don't get it. Stats don't "favor" Chris Paul. They do favor him. He had a better statistical season, by many different measures.
Stats can't have an opinion. They're numbers.
hornetshype.com #14
Dodgerblue15
05/15/09 07:45 PM
David Friedman over at 20 Second Time Out (link below) did a test of how assists are recorded. I thought it was a great idea so I DVRed several games and did the same. What he came up with is that assists recorded for Paul were 25 percent inflated. I saw the same. On the most egregious, Paul got an assist by passing it to Butler at the three point line. Butler drove to the hoop, jump stopped, pump faked, and then scored a 5 foot floater. Don't get me started on all the assists Paul gets from David West, where West does a variety of moves before scoring. This really opened my eyes to the value of stats. I used to be a firm believer in PER, but after seeing how badly stats are recorded in the NBA, I can't put my faith in a system that relies completely on stats. If Paul's numbers are that much inflated, then he really didn't have a historic season. Is he still elite? Most definitely. Is he still one of the game's best passers? Without a doubt yes. But his PER wouldn't be nearly as good as it is. So, again, you can make an argument for Paul, but you can't say Kobe doesn't deserve first team all NBA just because a few stats you pulled up say Paul is better.
http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/2009/04/charting-assists-for-chris-paul-and.html
westcoastslant.blogspot.com #15
LAkers wake up
05/15/09 08:24 PM
you can throw all the stats you want out there, but Lebron won the MVP because he has a supporting cast. No way he would have won it 2 years ago or even last year. And the fact is he cleaned up in the MVP votes, they shouldn't of bothered to list the top 5, (thus saving you from writing this long winded article, though nicely researched) they could have listed the top 3 or even the top 2 since it was a landslide. Im from LA and CP3 is one of my favorite players, but hes not gonna get any credit till the hornets get a real center who can score on his own, on top of a bunch of other players.
#16
3ptace
05/15/09 08:31 PM
I hate the Lakers , Kobe and everything that strolls out of LA that passes as sport so I would be the least objective in any argument due to my bias. Kobe is a good player , but he is no MJ(even though he wants to be). Just like the statue says.....best there ever was , best there ever will be. BTW interesting stats ...thank Ryan
#17
bigindian15
05/15/09 08:54 PM
I'm one of the biggest Kobe haters out there, and one of the biggest Laker haters out there (I hate them more than the Patriots right now, GO ROCKETS!!!). But I still think Kobe deserved all first team. I think Dirk should have been second team
#18
fsumatthunter
05/15/09 08:59 PM
Ryan, you are preaching to the choir on this one.
Additionally, I am happy the site gets more attention since the ESPN affiliate, but some of these comments make me hate the idea of comment threads because they are so illogical.
inthehuntwithhunter.blogspot.com #19
BeesGivingEffort
05/15/09 10:19 PM
Dodger the definition of assist is a player is allowed to take 1 dribble or none after the pass and score. There might be instances where assists are credited on 2 dribbles but you VERY rarely see them get credited for 3 or more. Furthermore, I think it is pretty safe to say that the assist biased is credited towards any other big name PGs. This link showed one instance where he saw a multi dribble assist and ran with it.
On PER. Assists are only part of the equation and to tribute CP3s outrageous PER as a PG solely to his assists is way off. His shooting percentages and extra rebounding and steals while committing low numbers of TOs are the reasons his PER is so spiked. Even to take 2-3 assists away a game, his PER would still be flat ridiculous for a PG.
#20
Ryan Schwan
05/15/09 10:33 PM
I've seen Friedman's articles. Of course - he's got an axe to grind, and it seems his conclusions always support his thesis. Surprising.
Regardless, even if Chris Paul gets the alleged 25% increase in his assist rating and all other players in the league are somehow having their assists appropriately recorded, Paul still produces more of his team's offense than Kobe.
The Adjusted numbers for Paul would be: 22.8 pts, 8.25 assists for 39.3 points of the Hornets 95.8 points per game. That equates to 41% of the Hornets total.
Kobe's 26.8 pts, 4.9 assists equate to 36.6 points of the Lakers 106.9 points per game. That equates to 34% of the Lakers totals.
Dodger, you are trying to claim that a team that posted the 5th best defensive efficiency in the league - and led the league in that stat until Bynum got hurt - is made up of a bunch of sub-par defenders . . . except for Kobe?
Oh wait, I'm not surprised. Like I said before. Many Lakers fans blame the rest of the team when the Lakers suck, and say Kobe didn't have the right support. When the team that surrounds him is good, they say the team is great because of Kobe, and the players around him are still the ones blamed for any perceived weaknesses.
www.hornets247.com #21
DonWithMalice
05/15/09 10:56 PM
"Of course - he's got an axe to grind, and it seems his conclusions always support his thesis. Surprising."... Sheesh Ryan, same could be said of this article, couldn't it? You even state you don't like Kobe, so - surprise, surprise - you create articles to justify that.
Look, don't get me wrong - Chris Paul is a good player 'n' all... but you damn Kobe for his performance in a year when the Hornets fell pretty damn flat?
Additionally, don't hold an elite players from the East up as comparisons, it doesn't float. Beyond the top few teams in the East, the pickings are slim there.
If I had to pick a player? Clearly - at the moment - I take James. But second? Paul, Kobe or Wade?
Err... Kobe thanks.
with-malice.com/ #22
Ryan Schwan
05/15/09 11:18 PM
Hey Don! You can dismiss my arguments as simple bias if you care to, but all of the numbers I posted are just repeats of what every stat geek who covers the NBA says - Chris Paul is amazing, and Kobe is great but not producing at the same level.
And yeah - I got an axe to grind here - but I'm not trying to hide it. I make it clear what I'm trying to do. To me, the Friedman articles have an agenda other than just stating that assists aren't recorded appropriately. Maybe that isn't correct, but it's how I've always taken them and as such I've had a hard time taking them seriously.
Kobe didn't play as well as Paul did this year. The award was for this year's regular season performances. To me, it's cut and dried - regardless of whether the Hornets fell flat - and regardess of whether the Lakers win the Finals after managing to handle the Yao-less Rockets.
www.hornets247.com #23
bigindian15
05/16/09 12:00 AM
Ok, wait, we're all forgetting the Cardinal rule of NBA fans:
DON'T EVER LISTEN TO LAKER FANS!!! THEY ARE THE MOST IRRATIONAL BEINGS IN THE KNOWN UNIVERSE!! THEY ARE THE REASON WHY OTHER LIFE HAS NOT MADE CONTACT WITH EARTH!!!
#24
Balamon
05/16/09 12:49 AM
I think these playoffs are pretty damning for Kobe's cause. He certainly has the best supporting cast, bar none, and he still shoots horridly for the HOU-LAL series. Hero complex much.
Kobe is the most polished player in the league, but certainly not the best. That label goes to James for being nearly perfect in terms of athleticism and leadership. Oh and just to make it all clear what makes a player a great team leader (an attribute which Kobe fans choose to ignore) is his ability to take his team to the next level, where Kobe always seems to fall short of his reputed championship pedigree. Petty infighting and pouting does not make a Jordan. Winning does.
That said I'd certainly take Wade, CP3, James, and Roy over Kobe if I were to pick leaders of my team. Just because they choose to lead and not blame.
#25
Dodgerblue15
05/16/09 04:43 AM
Ryan, to you it's cut and dry. I get it. I'm saying, in reality, it's NOT so cut and dry. And my point about the inflation of assists is not to take anything away from CP3 as a player. I'm most certainly not. Like I said, there is an argument for him to be on the first team. If it was opposite and Kobe wasn't on the first team, I would not be happy, but I wouldn't think it was Chris Paul who should be left off. I see why you think Paul is the best guard blah blah blah. I mean, you do write for and run a Hornets website. What I am trying to take credit away from is the use of stats to prove something. You can use stats to HELP an argument prove something, but as the sole basis for an argument, I find that line of argumentation flawed seeing as statistics are flawed. Also, Kobe will take full responsibility and blame if the Lakers fail to reach a championship. I'm not "blaming the rest of the team" for anything. They had the second best record in the league. That's a team effort. I'm just confused on why talent is solely relegated to offensively gifted teams, when defense is what wins championships. You didn't even touch that question, which was directed directly at you. Why is Kobe's team more talented than Lebron's when Lebron's team is clearly the most dominate team in the league? You're telling me that it's all Lebron's doing? I mean, that's the opposite of "blame Kobe's teammates." That's, the Michael Jordan-line of thinking. You know, the thinking that says that MJ won six rings all by his lonesome.
HornetsGone, I understand what an assist is. Perhaps you should check the rulebook one more time. My beef is not to defend Kobe. It's to downgrade the importance of using stats as the sole reason behind an argument. Hollinger, a stat guy like yourself, wrote an article comparing CP3 to Magic Johnson...saying Paul was better than Johnson due to his PER. Paul's dope, no doubt, but better than Magic? Solely based upon a metric that Hollinger made up that is based on stats that are not consistent from stat keeper to stat keeper. Don't you see the fault in that?
westcoastslant.blogspot.com #26
Dodgerblue15
05/16/09 04:49 AM
bigindian15, LOL. Trure, there are Lakers fans like that. Now that you've made us smile, add something intelligent to the conversation...
westcoastslant.blogspot.com #27
Brent Nahmias
05/16/09 08:25 AM
As someone who hates Chris paul (and his cowardly nutshots) anyone who had him lower than 3rd in mvp(Lebron cp3 Wade Dwight then MAYBE Kobw I had him 2nd) is insane.
#28
mW
05/16/09 08:41 AM
How about this: I'm a Hornets blogger who is unapologetically a Lakers fan. I actually got de-followed over at http://www.hornetshype.com by one reader who thought I was a Kobe-lover. So, I think that gives me a fairly good perspective on this situation. First, let me grind my own axe, though. I'm vehemently opposed to the 2 G 2 F 1 C voting system; yes, the NBA is flexible and anyone can be inserted for anyone at anytime, but consistently, there is a PG, SG, SF, PF, and C on the floor, and all team votings and awards, in my opinion, should reflect that. Thus, @Niall, for me the inclusion of Dirk was appropriate. I thought he was hands down the best PF in the League this year.
That said, I don't think anyone here is even arguing that CP3 isn't the best PG in the League right now, and would have been 1st Team if that's how it went. So for me, this debate really comes down to Wade and Kobe. Kobe's a better player career-wise, Wade had a better year this year, so for me, it's a no brainer. 1st Team THIS YEAR goes to Wade.
I still think Kobe and CP are the two best players in the League, but that's not how I believe 1st Team should work. [Footnote: Tim Duncan wouldn't make any of these lists if he was considered at his true position, the 5; kind of blows your mind, but true.] To me, it should be the best TEAM. And what coach in the League wouldn't want CP starting at PG instead of Kobe or Wade? Right. None.
While I'm here, and my brain's already invested, I also want to take a moment to respectfully disagree with Ryan's assessment on "Viscount James." He's not the best player in the League: as DeShawn said, he's overrated. I'd take Paul Pierce any day. Especially considering the atrocity of how no fouls are called on Lebron...
http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/smith2_090406.html
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-40-26/One-Foul-Per-39-Playoff-Minutes-Played--LeBron-James.html
...which totally overflates his ability to A) defend, B) get easy fast break buckets, and C) even remain in the game, when every other star player, Kobe, CP, P2, Dwight, etc., have to contend with this problem from time to time, and learn to balance their aggressiveness with restraint. Look, I'm telling you all, when some coach watches enough game tape, they'll see that Lebron does the same move every time, stampeding to the rim from the 3 point line and figure out a way to get bodies in front: like the Bucs figuring out Michael Vick (sports people, sports). And if the refs actually start making the right call, then Lebron will be no more than Rasheed Wallace: a talented whiner. If Nike/Stern allow it.
But that's just my ten cents.
www.hornetshype.com #29
bigindian15
05/16/09 01:06 PM
Something intelligent? Ok, give me a minute to read all the long posts you guys have written. In the meantime:
GO ROCKETS!!!
Ok, now that that's out of the way, what the hell are we arguing about? Are we arguing whether or not Kobe should be on the first team? IT DOESN'T MATTER. Every year there is some snub with the all star team, the all defense team, the first/second/third teams, etc. I believe the first team should have been CP, Wade, Kobe, LeBron, and Howard, and I honestly cannot see any way that didn't happen, until it did. CP not making it was a travesty. Dirk did NOT deserve first team this year.
The fact is, there is a screw up every year. Remember in his first and second years when CP didn't make the all star teams when he was clearly one of the best point guards in the west? Hell, Deron Williams is pretty much indisputably a top-two point guard in the league, and he hasn't even made an all star team!
My point is that there's no point in getting upset over this stuff. There are a lot of things (A LOT) to hate about Kobe, but the fact is he's one of the 2 best two-guards in the league (with Wade). He played like it this year. He was the best player on a team that dominated the West all year. He had the stats to back it up. You can nitpick over whose stats were better, but the fact is that Kobe's team was better, which is why he won. It's that simple. Voters don't use objective measures, they go by how they've seen the season play out, so guys like Kobe and Shaq and Duncan and Garnett, etc, always get a bias because they've been great for so long.
@DodgerBlue, you aren't going to convince anyone here that Kobe deserved anything more than CP. We all love CP like our child. He's the Drew Brees of basketball down here, he gives us hope to be great every year. Everyone outside LA hates the Lakers simply because the Laker fans accuse everyone else of hating on the Lakers. It's the best vicious circle so far this century.
Also, you said the Heat have more talent than the 05-06 Lakers. You're out of your mind if you really think that. The Heat have NOTHING to work with except Wade. They have two rookies who probably will be pretty good in Chalmers and Beasley, but they're rookies. They have a decrepit Jermaine O'Neal (for half a season) and a rookie coach. Wade CARRIED that team on his back.
HOWEVER, I think that Kobe taking that TERRIBLE team in 06 to the playoffs should have gotten him the MVP. I can't even fathom a guy averaging 35 points a game, even someone as selfish as Kobe was back then. He should have been MVP that year for carrying that team, because without him that team would have won like 10 games (then again, without him, they might have still had Shaq LOL). He SHOULDN'T have gotten it last year, last year belonged to CP.
Regarding MVP voting, this year's an absolute joke. IMO, the order should have been Wade, LeBron, CP, Kobe, then Howard. My point again: they always F up the voting for these awards.
Ok, I've rambled a lot, so let me conclude by saying:
GO ROCKETS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
#30
bigindian15
05/16/09 01:07 PM
By the way, calling Kobe the greatest of all time is the stupidest thing I've ever seen in my life and deserves an automatic lifetime ban
#31
Caleb462
05/16/09 03:29 PM
Chris Paul had an absolutely historic year. For the second time in a row he had one of the best seasons any point guard has ever had... and by almost all statistical measures (whether its PER or win shares or wins produced, etc.) this season ranks up there as one of the most productive of all time - point guard or otherwise. In addition, he carried an injury riddled team of middling talent to just under 50 wins.
Kobe had a nice year too, and was the "best player on one of the best teams" (although you can make an argument for Gasol being Kobe's equal in terms of productivity), but what he did this year statistically is not even in the same ballpark... and while his team has been very succesful - his team is loaded with talent.
Now I'm not saying stats are *everything*, but they *are* the best way we have to measure a player's production. This season, Chris Paul deserved first-team honors. Kobe deserved second-team.
neworleansbasketball.blogspot.com #32
Caleb462
05/16/09 03:38 PM
@MW. I think Lebron's low foul-rate is ludicrous too, but I think the whole "when coaches learn how to stop him" argument is fallacious. He's been in the league 5 years and no one's gotten close to figuring out how to stop him yet. In fact, he's only dominated more and more each year. There's plenty of game tape on him...
neworleansbasketball.blogspot.com #33
BeesGivingEffort
05/16/09 05:28 PM
If CP3 wanted to score 30points a game he could (and do it more efficiently than Kobe or Wade) and it looks like that's what it takes nowadays to make the First Team. Also, anyone notice that the top 5 in MVP voting all have 2 first names?
#34
Dodgerblue15
05/16/09 05:35 PM
Bigindian I appreciate the insight, but I have to disagree with you on one point. The Heat this year have a better team than that 05-06 Lakers, if for no other reason than they had guys who could shoot. Since everybody loves stats, just for kicks I've included all of their PERs. Udonis Haslem (13.1)/Lamar Odom (17). Jermaine O'Neal (15.5)/Kwame Brown (11.7). Mario Chalmers (13.3)/Smush Parker (13.4). Smush Parker might have won a bunch of street ball pick up games, but he never came close to anything like Chalmers did leading Kansas to a National title. Parker was a third string point guard at best. He's not even in the league anymore. Michael Beasley (17.2), though a rookie, was a top two lottery selection. Bynum (7.4) was the 10th overall pick and was a 17-year-old project who played in 46 games, while Beasley absolutely dominated college basketball and played in 81. In fact, Beasley, due to his inconsistency is probably better compared to Lamar Odom.
As for the rest of the team, you mean to tell me you'd take Jamario Moon (11.6) over Devean George (11.3)? Moon makes dumb mistakes too, but at least he can finish dunks. You'd take Luke Walton (11.6) over Haslem? You'd take Sasha Vujacic (8.4) over Daequan Cook (10.3)?
I'd take Brian Cook (15.6) over Jamal Magloire (10.6), partly because for whatever reason I loved Cookie when he was on the Lakers and partly because Magloire sucks (lamest All-star selection, maybe ever). But tell me, what part of this recap makes you believe the Lakers had a better team?
The Lakers won two more games with, if not worse, than just as horrifically bad a team as this year's Heat...And took the number two seeded Western Conference team (Suns) to seven games, while the Heat lost to a fourth seeded Atlanta Hawks team in seven. The fact that the Heat were a fifth seed with only 43 wins, while Kobe's 45-win team was a seventh seed, tells you something too.
westcoastslant.blogspot.com #35
bigindian15
05/16/09 06:25 PM
Umm, before you go bashing the Magloire all star selection, look at his numbers for that year, then look up what he did in the game. He might have won MVP if the east won that game.
Look, it's irrelevant which team was worse. I think they both should have been MVP in each's respective season, so whatever.
@Hornetsgonesoft: They don't all have first names. LeBron isn't a first name. It's not even a name lol. Name me one other person on the planet named LeBron (who was born before LeBron James became famous)
#36
BeesGivingEffort
05/16/09 06:39 PM
Kobe flagged in that Suns series. He looked like a man that let all the speculation saying he "wasn't anything without Shaq" get to him and let his bunk team fall on it's butt while looking apathetic. Kobe will never be MJ till he decides he wants to take games over on his own again. This team ball lately is all good for the image and everything, but Kobe has to be more lethal. Honestly, Kobe looks like he's lost a step or two since last year to me. I just want to see him dominate the game one more time before he becomes over the hill. I'm hoping for a Lakers/Cavs Finals one time because I think LBJ going nuts on the Lakers *might* make Kobe angry enough to try to be the old Kobe when they're getting rolled.
In connection to Chris Paul, I do think he gets a flag on the fact that he is allowed to not dominate games based on him being a PG and all. In truth, he is easily our best scorer (to me) and I would like to see him *try* to drop 35-45 on people when the rest of our team is playing like garbage. He is the only player on our team that can get his own shot whenever he wants it. CP3 could do 30 and 9 easily and I hope one day he figures that out. He needs to be THE GUY that stops teams from going on 13-0 runs and closes out the end of games with leads (the way the team is currently built at least).
#37
BeesGivingEffort
05/16/09 06:40 PM
Was more pointing to the fact that they all had first names for last names. And LeBron IS a first name because it is HIS first name lol.
#38
Robin
05/16/09 06:51 PM
OK, if people want to argue that stats are a bad way of measuring true performance, fine. But what I want to know is: what is the alternative? What method are you using where you know so much more than the geeks about players' abilities?
The truth is that rigorous, unbiased game observation is a good method for making judgments about players, but that no fans are at all qualified to do that. If you're someone like David Thorpe, who has extensive basketball knowledge and is constantly aware of the nuances of the game, and (this is important) watches basically EVERY GAME for every team all season long, and you tell me how statistics are deceptive in a certain case, then I will probably believe you. If you're a regular fan, someone who works a normal job like the rest of us, catches most of the home team games, and has an emotional attachment to that team, then your "observational data" has no credibility whatsoever when you throw it up against comprehensive statistical measurements. Even if, say, a Kobe fan manages to watch someone like LeBron play many times during the season, they're still most likely to highlight in their mind the plays/sequences that confirm their pre-existing opinions, and therefore not be able to accurately compare the two players.
Advanced statistics are especially definitive when they all agree on something (like, for instance, "Chris Paul is better than Kobe"). Different forms of advanced statistics measure a lot of different things. So when there is a discrepancy between some of them (like on, say, the value of Shane Battier), there is a larger role for observation to play in explaining what's really going on. But when they all point in the same direction, you can pretty much assume they're accurate. If nothing else, it places a huge burden of proof on the person who disagrees with them. And very few people in the world have the knowledge and credibility to provide that kind of proof.
Anyway, this all goes to support Ryan's argument that a) Chris Paul is clearly better than Kobe and b) if you can't put 3 guards on the 1st team, they should have left Kobe off. And if you want to disagree with that then you better have some alternative statistics (that make sense) or expert scout opinions to back you up.
#39
Caleb462
05/16/09 07:01 PM
^
What he said.
neworleansbasketball.blogspot.com #40
Dodgerblue15
05/16/09 10:56 PM
Robin, "extensive basketball knowledge" like the sportswriters and broadcasters who vote on the award? Or, is their knowledge not that good seeing as how they cover basketball day in and day out and actually go to the games and come from all over the United States? Why is their opinion "hype" and advanced statistics made up by some MIT grad in his basement the only truth needed? If the stats, both regular and advanced, were SO much in favor of CP3, then does that mean the nation of pro sportswriters are all stupid? Is that what the point of this article is then? I mean, those are the same people who vote for the MVP...
westcoastslant.blogspot.com #41
chefcdb
05/17/09 02:52 AM
I'm probably gonna catch grief for my perspective on all this, but I really didn't have a problem with the way the NBA first team worked out. It's fine to note that CP3 got more votes than Dirk but was denied, and it's obvious that while Paul improved upon his amazing stats from last year, his team did not play better. True, there's no PG on the team, and yes the stats indicate Kobe had less efficiency stats and a much better supporting cast than did CP and our injury-riddled Hornets. Still, Kobe managed his ego better this year, and while he's not quite the same Black Mamba, he's pretty damn clutch and his team led the West wire-to-wire.
To me, the amazing stat machine that is CP3 takes nothing away from his brilliance and what an unbelievable thrill it is to watch him compete for my hometown basketball team. You can carp that assists are overblown for the modern faster pace of the game, and you can even say CP gets too many lenient assist stats (although to say he gets a 25% bump strikes me as a harsh assessment that is likely unfounded), but the kid is simply devastating and only the ridiculous year that Nate "Tiny" Archibald had way back when he led the league in both scoring and assists compares with what Chris Paul is up to now.
Considering he doesn't have the size of Big O and Magic, Chris Paul may be the most exciting PG I've ever seen. John Stockton richly deserves his HOF honor, and sometimes I think he's still a bit underrated, but he was never the "are you kidding me?!!" kind of highlight reel that CP has elevated his game.
And there's the rub... that Kings team wasn't really very good despite Tiny's heroics. It's sad that CP led the NBA is assists, but the Hornets were near the bottom in total assists. The Hornets seemed like a solid defensive team by the stats, but they slowed the pace so much this year, in part due to injuries and because West & Paul played so many heavy minutes the team couldn't run as much (and Chandler, who is the engine for our fast break missed half the games this season); their defensive efficiency was not that of the 4th best D. The problem is that the Hornets placed such a burden on Paul that if he couldn't play at a superstar level, the team had little chance of winning. CP's stats are inflated because he had to do it all for an anemic scoring team that couldn't run, was slow-footed, and had very little bench productivity. If the Hornets had a decent bench, it would have decreased Paul's % of scoring plays for the Hornets, and that would've been a very good thing for the team.
Yes, it was a historic year for Chris. But I see the Hornets over reliance on CP in the end as a defect, to the degree that he was worn out and beaten down by all the huge minutes he had to play, there was little in the tank come playoff time. I hope next season that CP's numbers as they relate to team % goes down quite a bit, which will indicate we have added another ballhandler, a better bench, and better rebounding.
Considering he doesn't have the size of Big O and Magic, Chris Paul may be the most exciting PG I've ever seen. John Stockton richly deserves his HOF honor, and sometimes I think he's still a bit underrated, but he was never the "are you kidding me?!!" kind of highlight reel that CP has elevated his game, not to mention CP's rugged ability to rebound the ball despite his size. Personally, Chris Paul is up there with Walt Frazier and for me it doesn't get any better than that.
Nonetheless, I would trade some of his mighty stats for a better balanced team, with a reliable scorer down in the post besides West and a bench with some scoring firepower because it's about wins, about having enough energy to compete in the playoffs and get that ring. It was amazing how CP shouldered the load for the Hornets, but I know that if the Hornets gain this better balance and win more games, CP will get all the accolades he deserves even should his stats sink a little bit next season.
@bigindian
I have no idea who to root for. I can't stand Houston as a city, although I admire the fortitude of this Rockets team w/o McGrady and Rafer, and w/o Yao it's sensational how they have taken the fight to the Lakers. The Lakers are the Dallas Cowboys of the NBA, while I don't really hate on 'em, I'm seldom sorry when they lose. I also would rather see Denver not get to the Finals, and I think Houston will be too depleted to make it a series, but then I never figured they could takedown the Lakers once Yao was hurt. Still Houston sucks...
www.greengoddessnola.com #42
nikkoewan
05/17/09 04:59 AM
yes, most of the voters are stupid. they cant define what an MVP is( best player on best team? take him out of the team and its bad? statistical MVP?) Same here, they cant define what a 1st team all nba is. SO the logical way is to weigh it with statistically, impact on team and contributed wins. and from what i see, from all 3 aspects, CP3 outweighs kobe. BY A LOT.
proof of why the voters are stupid, how could Nash win back to back MVPs when Kobe was the more deserving on one of them, or that on next season after his back to back MVPs, he had a better statistical season than the first two or CP3 not winning MVP last year because Kobe was due for an MVP( i really dont understand this). or that OJ mayo(whom I love and i believe will be great some time), gets the same number of points in the All NBA team as derrick rose? or that Mo Williams was left out of the All star team. I can go on and on about the stupidity and fallacious comments by voters, but it seems to me your set on saying that it is a debate of CP3 over Kobe when the real debate is really Kobe or Dwade. and the winner goes to.... Dwade.
#43
mamba
05/17/09 09:10 PM
all you little naggers keep on naggin while kobe and the lakers keep on winning.. thats the problem witht eh people these days, all they do is complain and they dont do anything about it.. paul "may" have better stats than KB but that doesnt mean he's a better player.. being a good player is not all about padding the stats.. thats just a part of it..
now dont tell me the reason kobe is winning cause he got better teamates, thats one part of it.. he did what he had to in order to get the team he had right now, he had patience with the team and now he is reaping the rewards.. if paul wants to be a solid contender for a title he needs to tell the team owner and the GM to go look for a supporting cast that will give him and the team a better chance of winning the title, instead of surrounding him witht a bunch of scrubs who cant create a play for themselves (i.e chandler, west, peja and almost everyone on the team..) not really hard to stop a team if you all have to do is "cripple" the player that make the team go.
#44
QueenBee
05/17/09 09:50 PM
I haven't read through this entire thread but Vice President of Referee Operations and Director of Officials Bernie Fryer answered the question about assists this way....
"What constitutes an assist? Does a player have to score directly after he receives the ball from a teammate? Or can he dribble the score? What if a player takes an inbounds past at his baseline, dribbles the whole length of the court, then scores. Is there an assist on that play?
-- Shawn
Bernie's Answer: I've received a number of questions related to game statistics (assists, blocks, turnovers, etc.). Referees are not responsible for determining these stats. There are courtside statisticians who enter game events in real-time (check nba.com while you're watching a game to see live play-by-play stats). The statisticians use guidelines for what counts in different categories. I asked our Director of Game Administration to help clarify this for us. Here is what he said:
An assist is credited to the player tossing the last pass leading directly to a field goal, only if the player scoring the goal responds by demonstrating immediate reaction toward the basket. This can include dribbling, as well as receiving a pass from out of bounds. In your example where the player dribbles the entire length of the court, the inbounder would not be credited with an assist due to the fact that the pass did not lead directly to a field goal."
http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/01/01/bernie.ask.bernie.20090101/index.html
I notice people like to try to discredit CP3 for his assist numbers.
#45
QueenBee
05/17/09 10:00 PM
Has any point guard before CP3 ever had a PER of 30 for a season? A 6ft one nonetheless.
#46
BeesGivingEffort
05/17/09 11:16 PM
QueenBee - CP3 has the highest PER according to Hollinger of any player 6' 3" and under in the last 30ish years or so.
#47
nikkoewan
05/18/09 01:08 AM
@mamba - Kobe was never patient. He was always ranting. The Lakers success right now is more of an indicator of Mitch Kupchack's patience with the team and Kobe. Kobe is bad at game 7's( except that exceptional Portland Game 7) as of the moment. Now don't tell me the coach told him to miss shots. I understand that coach wanted Kobe to share the ball. But miss shots? WTF...( kobe should have made like 7 - 12 shots not 4 -12). Talk about scrubs. If only we were healthy ( like the Fakers were the whole year except for injuries from minor players except for Bynum, which is replaceable), we could have easily taken the 1st seed in the West. But alas... haha. Scrubs. that touches my funny bone. Since you pointed it out. Kobe never had a 56 win season ( when team is healthy) and a 49 win season( with most of the team's contributor's injured) with those scrubs you had back then... so pls... Kobe and Gasol should have been together in the 2nd team.
#48
nikkoewan
05/18/09 01:11 AM
@ QueenBee - it should also be noted that the NBA checks stats after the game to assure the validity of the stats. Just ask Lebron and his stolen Triple Double at the MSG. So Chris Paul's stats are not really inflated. They are just the norm. If they are, then the whole league's assist totals are. The same NBA people check the stats AFTER the game to check the stats every game every team every player.
#49
QueenBee
05/18/09 11:50 AM
@HornetsGonesoft... Cool, thanks.
@nikkoewan, Thanks. Now that you mention it, I do remember hearing about stats being checked when Lebron got his triple double taken away.
#50
JoJo
05/18/09 10:20 PM
I had planned on staying quiet all summer and taking some time away from basketball. The playoffs really got me down, but I do want to chime in a little bit here. I haven't seen too many comments claiming that Kobe is really clutch, but that tends to be a pretty common claim among Kobe fans.
What humorous about that claim is that he is possibly the worst shooter in history when it comes to taking game winning shots.
http://82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm
I would love to see a Kobe jock hugger try to refute this. My opinion is that Kobe is the most overrated player in the history of the NBA. Without Shaq he would be considered in the same class as guys like Allen Iverson. He's never been the best player on a championship team and he was the driving force behind the breakup of Lakers dynasty (does 3 in a row make you a dynasty?).
Even this year Pau Gasol is arguably superior to Kobe, but if they happen to win the title behind a huge Pau Gasol effort you know that Kobe will be the one getting the award.
I would personally like to see MVP, all nba, all defensive team, etc chosen by the coaches or players. It just seems like the writers all vote subjectively.
#51